Interview with chiropractor, Dr. Fred Lewin of Mission Chiropractic, in Westminster, Colorado.
Joe: All right. Thank you for joining me today, Dr. Fred.
Dr. Lewin: Great to be here with you, Joe.
Joe: So, Dr. Lewin, tell me about how you got started in chiropractic.
Sciatica pain leads to a chiropractic visit
Dr. Lewin: During my teenage years, I started experiencing some significant leg pain, and I didn’t have any back pain at all, but there were days where I remember. Back in my mid-teens, I’d say probably 15, 16. I remember having to inch to the edge of my bed and just fall off the end of the bed onto the floor and work my way up to standing. And my leg would be shaking and wow, and numb and significant pain. It took a couple of minutes for it to get to the point where I could put weight on it.
I told my mom about the pain, but it was something that wasn’t there all the time. So she took me to the top docs. We lived in New York City, so it wasn’t like we were in a small town. We had availability of doctors.
She took me to the orthopedic doctor. He x-rayed my 15-year-old spine. Everything looked normal. MRIs didn’t exist in those days, so he could only look at the bones. He told me to bend forward at my waist. He lifted his hands and said, “I don’t know what’s wrong with this kid.”
Joe: “It’s not his back. It’s something else, maybe in his head.”
Dr. Lewin: Yeah, that was my experience. And then we went to a couple of other doctors, different specialists, and they had different opinions, but I didn’t get satisfaction or any treatment.
Visit to a chiropractor for sciatica pain relief
Dr. Lewin: Around the same time, my dad got in a car accident, and my aunt recommended a chiropractor.
None of my immediate family had visited a chiropractor before. Growing up in New York, I had never even seen a sign for a chiropractor. I had never heard of it chiropractic before. It wasn’t like today where there are chiropractors next to every Starbucks and dry cleaners.
My dad started going for the injuries he had from the car accident. He was unsure at first, but he went on my aunt’s recommendation. Then he starting to take me with him.
I got exposed to chiropractic through that experience. A couple of years later, I graduated high school. I was into health and nutrition, I was on the gymnastics team, and I was into working out. So, it just seemed natural for me to pursue chiropractic.
I didn’t have an interest in math or engineering. So, it just seemed natural for me to pursue chiropractic as a good profession that I was interested in.
Joe: And you’d seen good results from that from your
Dr. Lewin: Right…
Joe: You had leg, hip, and sciatica pain, and you went to the chiropractor and were able to see a change in your symptoms, right?
Dr. Lewin: Yeah, I was very physically active at that time. And I was able to do that as a result of the chiropractic care I received.
What is chiropractic?
Joe: What is chiropractic care?
Dr. Lewin: Chiropractic is a science and an art. Chiropractors work primarily on the spinal column, but we also work on all the body’s joints. We’re looking to get proper mobility and function of the joints. Our goal is to restore the proper range of motion, movement, and flexibility of the spine. That is also going to have an impact on all the soft tissue around the spinal joints.
That would include ligaments, tendons, muscles, associated nerves and blood vessels, and lymphatic vessels going to other parts of the body.
Chiropractors impact the nervous system, and we can affect the body’s overall health by adjusting the spine.
Joe: Wow. That’s amazing!
Typical reasons for getting chiropractic pain management care in Denver
Joe: What’s a problem that you would want to come to the top of mind if someone is experiencing that you’d be confident your chiropractic techniques will enable their recovery?
Dr. Lewin: The common symptoms that somebody would contact a chiropractor for would be neck and back pain, headaches, and sciatica are all significant symptoms that lead people to my chiropractic office in Westminster, Colorado.
People come in after sports injuries, after working out, and yard work. Out here in Colorado, there’s plenty of calls we get during snow season, people shoveling snow.
Dr. Lewin: Yeah, there you go, snowboarding, hiking, mountain biking. Both young and old patience come into my chiropractic office. The young come in because they’re very active, and the old come to me because they’re getting stiff, and they’re going out and weeding their yard, and they’re coming in complaining about back pain.
What to expect when visiting a chiropractor in Denver, Colorado
Joe: When somebody comes in for a chiropractic visit in your Denver Metro chiropractic office, say that my shoulder’s bothering me, and I come into the chiropractor. What can I expect? What would the process look like?
Dr. Lewin: Well, We’re going to sit down with you, get a thorough history of your background, your complaint, and how you’ve sought pain relief in the past. If you’ve had it before, if it’s a recurring injury, we want to know who you’ve seen and what’s helped and what has not helped.
There’s a reason why the person is in our office. So much of the time they’ve seen other practitioners before us, chiropractors are not always the first doctor that is called.
We want to get all the information we can to make a proper diagnosis and develop an appropriate treatment plan. So following the consultation and history, we’re going to do a thorough exam, and we’re going to examine not only the area, which let’s say is your shoulder, but we want to check the upper Peck area or which is your chest as well for example.
Referred pain from old injuries, scars, and bad posture
Dr. Lewin: Many times the pain can come from other areas. It’s not always the place where you’re feeling the pain that is causing the problem. So, many times we’ll find it on the opposite side of the body or another end of the muscle; you have long muscles in your body. So, sometimes you’re feeling the pain may be in your shoulder blade, but that muscle attachment might go all the way down to your pelvis.
Many times we’ll find an area in the low back that is connected to the shoulder and causing pain there.
Dr. Lewin: For instance, your lat muscle, which bodybuilders work on those, so their shoulders look really broad.
Joe: They look kinda like they have wings.
Dr. Lewin: Yeah, like they have wings coming out from underneath their arms. Those muscles go from the shoulder down to the hip.
Joe: Oh wow.
Chiropractic addresses all areas of the body to locate the root cause of an injury or pain
Dr. Lewin: So if you have a problem with your hip, and you have some inflammation of the lat muscle that attaches at that point, that lower point. That could restrict you from lifting your arm or interfere with your shoulder movement and range of motion.
Joe: Okay, so you come in, you get an exam, and during that process, you evaluate the patient’s history and check not only the area where there’s pain, but you also figure out if that pain is coming from somewhere else. There’s a different area that has restriction, that’s the root cause, but that might not be causing pain. But if you focus treatment in that area, it could reduce the pain in the part of the body where there’s pain. So, after you finish with that exam, what happens from there.
Chiropractic therapies at Mission Chiropractic in Westminster, Colorado
Dr. Lewin: That’s a great question, Joe. So, we have multiple therapies that we can apply. Chiropractic adjustments are usually one of the main treatments at Mission Chiropractic. But in our clinic, we also do dry needling using acupuncture needles. In addition, we do laser therapy, which is light therapy that reduces pain and inflammation, stimulates healing and repair.
We have massage bodywork, which is done by my wife, Karise Lewin. That bodywork can free up many trigger points in muscles that might restrict the range of motion and create pain and referred pain. In addition, we’ve got spinal decompression machines, which we usually use for a disc injury. So, during the exam, we determine if the injury or pain is related to a disc in the patient’s back or a pinched nerve, or is this more muscle?
We make that determination, give a diagnosis and come up with a treatment plan. For example, we may use spinal adjustments first and then move to exercise, spinal decompression, and bodywork.
We’ve got many tools in our bag, which is helpful. Because not everything works the same for everyone or every case, so determine pretty quickly what’s working and what’s not. So if we find that one procedure’s not working, we’ll quickly move to another therapy. Usually, between the different therapies we offer, we’re going to find one that works in most cases. And if not, we’ll refer the patient out.
Does chiropractic work? What results will I have after visiting a chiropractor?
Joe: So somebody comes in for a chiropractic adjustment, you go through the exam, and then you do your initial adjustment. After their first treatment, what results can they typically expect to get from a chiropractic visit?
Dr. Lewin: In my practice in Westminster, Colorado, I’m always looking for improvement on every visit. During the exam, we will find movement restriction or tightness that produces pain or weakness.
And after the treatment, we’re going to reevaluate to see what kind of improvement we’re seeing. So, if the patient can’t turn their head to the left very well, then after the treatment, we will recheck their neck and make sure it’s moving better. So, in reality, it’s not always going to be a hundred percent on everybody, but we’re going to look for improvement. So, the patient can expect a reduction in pain and improvement in function after visiting a chiropractor.
How many times will I need to visit a chiropractor?
Dr. Lewin: And as far as how often a patient will need to come in, it depends on the nature of the symptoms. Some chiropractors recommend long-term and plans. We see every patient in as well, individual. We have patients that come in for one or two visits, and they’re better. And we have other patients who have more traumatic injuries. If they tear a ligament or a tendon, whether they come to see me or not, it’s going to take maybe four, six weeks for that to heal.
If somebody has been in a traumatic accident, such as a car accident, there is often torn tissue, injured muscle ligaments, tendons, and sprained joints. There’s a timeframe for the healing process for anybody. Younger, healthier people heal faster. They’re going to respond to chiropractic treatments quicker. If somebody comes in and they’re diabetic and inflamed, then the process will be slower. If they are older, their body won’t bounce back as quickly.
Should I visit a chiropractor if I’m not experiencing pain?
Joe: If somebody gets better and they don’t have pain, that’s the goal. But if somebody has an injury, but they’re not experiencing pain, should they wait until the next time that they are experiencing pain to come and see a chiropractor? Do you recommend people come in, even if they’re not experiencing pain, to avoid further injury?
Dr. Lewin: Yes. Some patients choose wellness or maintenance care. It could be every three, four, six weeks, or even every two months for some patients. Addressing structural issues in the musculoskeletal before pain symptoms appear, helps patients to avoid serious injury, scar tissue development, and severe pain.
In today’s society, we’re not moving like we used to. We’re not holding a big, heavy, broad sword, and we’re not out there bailing hay over our shoulders, getting a lot of extension into our spine.
Many of us are sitting over a phone, and we’re in a flexed posture because we’re sitting. So that’s going to cause tightness and restriction throughout the body. Like tightness in the pelvis that affects the thighs and the muscles in the front of the body. The chest is going to be affected with tight and restricted muscles, the upper back the neck as well.
Chiropractic care helps before pain starts
Dr. Lewin: Chiropractic can help even before pain starts by correcting posture and aligning the spine. Visiting a chiropractor helps with proper alignment and keeps the spine musculature as healthy as possible. That affects function in everything from walking to physical activities to their posture while they’re sitting.
People with a forward head posture don’t tend to live as long. In some people, it’s pretty severe where they can’t even lift their head all the way. In addition, poor posture can affect internal organs, breathing, and the heart.
Posture is important. And one thing that’s going on today we’re living longer. We’ve got drugs and surgeries that can keep us alive, where people have died in the past of heart disease in their forties or fifties now, people who are on meds are living into their seventies, eighties, and beyond.
But one thing that’s not changing is the musculoskeletal system is still deteriorating. And that’s one of the biggest complaints in the elderly population, parts of their body are aging despite meds keeping them alive longer. The eyes, the teeth, the bones, the joints, and so on are wearing out long before a person dies.
You can’t get a spine replacement surgery
And it’s not as easy to get a joint replacement in the spine. They’re working on it, but it’s not like getting a hip replacement or a knee replacement. It’s a much more difficult situation when the spine becomes deteriorated. And when you see grandpa, you think of the posture of grandpa; he’s all stooped over.
Joe: He’s stooped over his cane.
Dr. Lewin: Shuffling along and everybody’s, “I don’t want to look like my mom, do I have that hump in my upper back?” I especially hear that from females quite a bit. They’re scared about that. Cause they’ve seen their mom, they’ve seen their grandmother. So they don’t want to struggle to move around as they age.
Should young people see a chiropractor?
Joe: Yeah. So if somebody has those thoughts, then what’s your recommendation for them? Say they’re in their twenties, thirties, forties, and maybe they are starting to experience a little bit of pain or stiffness in different areas of their body. What would your recommendation or advice be to people who are younger and they see grandpa, and they say, “Man, I don’t want to look like that when I get to be their age.”
Dr. Lewin: I would recommend coming to a chiropractor and getting their spine checked. I would recommend everybody, no matter if they have pain or not. Get in, get a spinal check. Just the way you get your teeth checked.
Dentists have done a great job educating the public. People know if they wait to see a dentist that the results can be disastrous. I’ve done this myself, where I might be eating out somewhere, and I feel that initial pain in my tooth, and I’m thinking, “Uh-oh.” The longer you wait to get your teeth checked, the more money it costs. If you wait, you look at root canals or lose the tooth, and the expensive dental treatments begin.
It’s better to get your spine checked every few months at least to avoid serious problems down the road as you age.
Seeing a chiropractor can help you detect long-term problems before they become systemic
Joe: What is a problem that somebody wouldn’t notice at first, or maybe they have a little bit of pain, but then as they ignore that, what are some of the potential consequences? If they don’t address it quickly?
Dr. Lewin: The consequences of not dealing with an injury, poor posture, or pain can become systemic. It can affect many functions throughout the body, through the nerve endings in the nervous system. There are many nerve endings along the skin, the hands, and the feet, the face. So even just hitting your foot real hard can cause issues in other parts of the body that you’re not even aware of and that you wouldn’t connect with your foot.
Anytime you have an injury, you’ll have some stiffness once the pain goes away. There might initially be some pain and swelling. Let’s say you sprain your wrist and that pain and swelling eventually will go away if you rested and you don’t keep using it, but you may have some restricted movement in those joints.
And over time, it can become more and more restricted. So it’s going to be easy to reinjure it. But then that will affect your elbow, shoulder, then up to your neck, and down your back. Whether it’s your foot or your hand, or your jaw, every joint will affect other areas. So different parts of your body are connected.
Should I go to my doctor or visit a chiropractor?
Joe: I’ve heard people talk about chiropractic before and ask if it’s safe. There can be some fear around chiropractic for some people. When you think of a medical issue, most people think of going to their family practitioner for an issue.
Let’s revisit the shoulder injury example. I have pain in my shoulder; the first thought is to go to my general practitioner and ask them about it. And so, what would your response be to that?
Dr. Lewin: Just the word general practitioner or the name they’re very broad in their nature of what they do.
They’re usually the gatekeeper. And they’re going to determine whether you have a problem that is significant enough to refer you to somebody like an orthopedic doctor who’s going to be very busy.
Many times the general practitioner is just there to make sure you’re okay. They make sure you don’t need a referral to the ER or an emergency procedure. Typically, they’ll just prescribe some meds. They might refer you for PT if they feel it’s significant enough. But there’s usually not immediate treatment unless you’re looking for pain meds.
Chiropractors are hands-on and give immediate pain relief treatments
When you go see a chiropractor, we’re going to be more hands-on. I know in my experience, I visited a medical doctor after a car accident, and they didn’t even touch me. They were sitting at their computer, asking questions. They may have asked me just to turn my neck. There wasn’t any real hands-on in terms of checking musculature.
Joe: For me, I had that exact experience that you’re talking about, where I had a shoulder injury, and I thought I might’ve had a torn rotator cuff. So I went to my doctor, and he, I think he did check my shoulder just a little bit, and I explained the pain that I was having.
He quickly says, “okay, cool. I’ll make a referral to the sports medicine doctor who would do rotator cuff surgeries and stuff like that. He’ll know way more about it.” So I schedule an appointment. It’s probably three weeks later, and I get up there. I walk in the door. I probably sat around for an hour, as usually happens in those situations.
I went back to see the practitioner, and he was in there maybe five minutes or less. He moved my arm around a bunch of different ways and said, “you’re not really in a spot where you need surgery. All right, see you later.” Then he took off and didn’t explain any of it to me.
He didn’t tell me what it could be. And I had severely limited range of motion where I couldn’t lift my elbow above my shoulder at all. They didn’t give me anything I could do about it. So then I was like, “what do I do from here?”
So that scenario you described rings true for me in my experience.
Wait times for medical doctors are longer than for chiropractors
Dr. Lewin: Sure. Plus, the patient’s going to be sometimes waiting weeks or months. If they are referred to a specialist, they’re going to have to wait for that appointment. They may not get into their GP right away, where normally in our office, we can get you in the same day or the next day.
And that’s important for somebody who’s in pain. Especially if they need to get back to work or are looking to get back into the game of whatever they’re playing soccer or volleyball.
Many times the patient is waiting a long time. People who don’t understand chiropractic will go that route, but people who do understand chiropractic, and have been before, and have gotten immediate relief and sometimes received results in one to two visits, they’re going to call me first because they already know. They come in, “Well, I don’t want pain meds.” I might ask them, “Oh, have you seen anybody else?” And they usually respond, “Oh, I don’t want to do the injections or the pain medications or get surgery.”
They know people who have gotten surgery, and the results haven’t been optimum. And, of course, the risks for surgery are very high. So, many times, even if a patient has a situation where they may require surgery, at some point, like they’re going to need a knee replacement. They could prolong that sometimes for years before they have to have the replacement done through the techniques and procedures we do.
Avoid surgery through non-invasive treatments by a chiropractor
For example, I know one of the docs who has mentored me. He’s out here in Colorado. He has a client who was a CEO of a corporation in Europe. The patient is a multimillionaire. So whenever he comes to the States, he will fly this chiropractor to New York or Chicago, wherever he’s at, sometimes even to Europe to work on him. And this is a fellow; he could go anywhere in the world and get a knee replacement, you know, he could find the best surgeon.
But he’s opted to wait because he was having issues walking and walking upstairs, and after getting treatment, his range of motion improved to the point where he was able to do those activities without pain. And he was like, “Oh, this is good for me. I want to avoid surgery as long as possible.”
Should I wait to get a knee replacement or back surgery?
The longer you could wait on surgery, of course, especially a joint replacement, the technology is going to improve. Surgical procedures are going to improve. And of course, there are only so many times you could get surgery. And so, the longer you could wait, the better.
Joe: If you think about it, the advancements are insane with any technology from 10 years ago. Think about it, smartphones were barely around ten years ago, they were just introduced, and they weren’t that smart compared to what we have now.
I can’t even remember if the original ones had a camera on them, if they did, they were terrible. And now it’s like…
Dr. Lewin: There was no camera.
Joe: You can almost do professional-quality video and photos with just your phone at this point. So, ten years in phone technology has been massive. And I imagine it’s probably the same thing.
I know with 3D printing, they’re getting advanced with different prosthetics, and I’m sure joint replacements as well. I don’t know if they are there with joint replacements yet, but they almost definitely will be in ten years.
Non-surgical treatments for shoulders, knees, backs. and ankles
Dr. Lewin: Sure. More docs are getting into STEM cell and blood platelet procedures and getting away from surgeries. When you cut on somebody, it will leave scar tissue, and scar tissue restricts the flexibility and causes adhesions of the fascia of the body. And that will impact other areas far away from the surgical site.
So, many times I’ll have a patient complaining about neck pain, and I’ll always ask patients, have you had any surgery? Have you had any broken bones? I’ll always check the scars.
Dr. Lewin: And work on the scars and see what kind of changes we get. Even if the scars are at a distant place from…
Joe: So, by working on people’s scars, you’ve seen results in their neck without even necessarily doing too much else?
Alternative treatments for neck pain
Dr. Lewin: Major changes, all over the body. I was thinking about one patient in particular. He came in and had a significant scar on his ankle. He came in complaining of neck pain. I checked his range of motion. I remember it was to the left. I’ve seen thousands of patients, but I remember this patient, and he could barely turn his neck. It was as bad as the worst whip lashes I’ve seen. He maybe had less than five degrees of rotation. You should have about 45 to 50 degrees of rotation.
And the first thing I did is I went to his scar, and I worked on that. And I had him sit up and check this range of motion. It was totally normal.
Joe: Are you serious?
Dr. Lewin: Yeah,
Joe: that’s incredible. Just from working on a scar on his ankle.
Dr. Lewin: Yeah. And many times, women will have significant scars, large scars from cesarean sections. And there’ll be large significant scars across the front of their body. And that will really have an impact on the back muscles.
Dr. Lewin: The mid-back, the chest, and the neck, shoulders. Those scars can really create a lot of adhesions and restrictions in the tissue.
Joe: Wow. That’s incredible.
Is chiropractic safe?
Joe: I’ve heard people have fear around going to a chiropractor, or they’ve heard a horror story, or they look up something on the internet, and they find some crazy story about somebody going to see a chiropractor. So, is chiropractic safe?
Dr. Lewin: Yeah, Joe, that’s an important question. I know there’s a lot of talk out there about the supposedly dangerous effects of chiropractic. In fact, books have been written about it, and it is something on people’s minds if they don’t have experience with chiropractic. But actually, you’re going to have a bigger chance of a reaction just taking over-the-counter pain meds or prescription meds. Or even going to get medical treatment, medical treatment is one of the top causes of death or illness in the list of the leading six or eight causes of death…
Joe: Yeah, it’s actually the third leading cause of death. It’s around 250,000 deaths a year in America are from medical mistakes and malpractice.
Going to see a chiropractor is safer than taking meds
Dr. Lewin: Or even effects of medications.
The chances of getting hurt from chiropractic are very small. In fact, the chances of a stroke are, I believe, one in 10 million. And it’s about the same amount as even just going to see your medical doctor. Now, some people will just be playing golf for taking a shower, washing their hair, and they’ll get a stroke or go to the beauty parlor and have their neck back in the basin, getting their hair washed. And that could cause a stroke to potentially.
Joe: You don’t usually see people writing books about it when that happens because they’re just not associating getting their hair done with a stroke. But then, when people are making a tie between something that doesn’t even exist, and all of a sudden, they think it’s a bigger deal than it is.
Dr. Lewin: Yeah. It occurs so infrequently that it’s almost the same amount as any of those other reasons I mentioned just walking into your medical doctor and going in for your moles to be checked and going home and suffering a stroke. It’s about the same percentage.
Chiropractic reduces pain
Joe: Right. When it’s with a medical doctor, it’s interesting to see the difference in how people approach things like this. If they’re not used to seeing a chiropractor. And like you said, if somebody’s gone to see a chiropractor before, they’re much more likely to go to a chiropractor first, if they have even something much more significant happen.
Maybe they had a little twinge in their back, and they go, “Oh, maybe I’ll go see a chiropractor,” or a friend recommends that they go. So they go see a chiropractor, and they get results. They’re much more likely to go see a chiropractor if they have a major shoulder injury or pull their back or something. And I think the kind of consistency of how long you see people go to chiropractors for decades is evidence that people really do see amazing results from seeing a chiropractor.
But when it comes to going to see a medical doctor, they prescribed things all the time that don’t work. And the patient rarely comes back to the doctor and say, “Oh, this didn’t work. You’re horrible. You have no idea what you’re doing,” they just go, “aah, that didn’t work.”
And then the doctor goes. “Oh, let’s try something different.” But for whatever reason, with chiropractic, if somebody goes in, and they don’t see the exact result they want on the very first try, they’re like, “this doesn’t work.” But in reality, there might just be some other technique to try, and you go in two or three times, and you might be really surprised at the results you’d see from doing that.
Every patient is unique
Dr. Lewin: Yeah. I enjoy chiropractic cause it’s not just handing out a pill. It takes a lot of detective work with some people. Some cases are pretty straightforward, but you really have to search around to figure out the root cause of pain with other people and even develop new types of treatment. In terms of an area, you might treat for a particular complaint if your average or regular techniques are not working.
So it makes chiropractic real interesting because everybody’s wired differently. And so it’s fascinating. I’m amazed almost every day. The results I see and the changes I see in it make it real exciting to be a chiropractor because it’s not routine. We always have to figure out the best way to treat the patient.
And chiropractors look at each patient as an individual, where I think the typical medical doctor has their labs that are going to run. And, “okay, blood sugars elevated, we’re going to try this drug.” So, it’s pretty straightforward. Of course, some medical doctors are into more functional medicine that will explore deeper and try to find the root cause of pain or symptoms.
And they would be similar to what I do in my practice, where it makes it much more interesting, working with individual patients, figuring out what the cause is, and getting the patient better.
Is seeing a chiropractor worth the money?
Joe: When somebody comes into your practice, and they have some acute injury going on, and they haven’t come and seen you before, how often do you run into people who have gone to their doctor, or gone to a specialist, or multiple doctors and they haven’t been able to figure anything out, and so then they end up coming to you.
Dr. Lewin: Yeah, that’s very typical for a first-time patient. For them to have seen other providers and they haven’t gotten the results they’re looking for and haven’t gotten the relief or the help, and they’ll wind up in our office, and it’s usually after other providers have failed on them.
Will I see results with chiropractic?
Joe: What percentage of results do you typically see with people that are coming and, they’ve seen multiple providers, and they aren’t satisfied with the recommendations or they’re still experiencing pain, but they’re told everything’s fine. How often do you see a noticeable difference in people like that after they come to see you?
Dr. Lewin: In our practice on the first visit, we’re going to spend some significant time with the patient. Like I said earlier, I’m looking for change on every visit, including the first visit.
The vast majority of patients who come in, even on the first visit, they’re going to leave with a noticeable change in their pain levels, their movement, and range of motion. So there’s a greater percentage of people who see change than people who do not.
Joe: That’s amazing.
Dr. Lewin: So, a small percentage might not have any change.
Joe: Especially after they’ve gone to other people and still seeing results in most people is impressive.
Dr. Lewin: To tell you the truth, Joe, I’m disappointed if I don’t see change. That’s something that I personally want to see. I’m not just running people through the mill and trying to see as many people as I could fit in the day. I’m looking for a change in pain levels, and I’ll try different procedures, and reevaluate the patient, and figure out what’s going on because I’m looking for that for myself as well. Cause I’m not satisfied. I’m not happy if the patient leaves and they’re in the same pain they were when they walked in.